Posted on this Website in May 2003
Transcripts Done By Oscar H
Special Thanks to Harold Kameya for the Tape
Japanese American Citizens League Forum on Gays & Japanese Americans at San Fernando Valley Japanese American Center, October 19, 2002
Peter J Corpus: First of all, I want to thank Harold and Ellen for inviting me to moderate this panel. And I want to thank all of you for joining us. I guess the World Series were playing out after (Inaudible. Laugh.) Just a few words about myself: I'm Peter J Corpus: A third generation Filipino American, born and raised in Honolulu. After I went, after I finished at the University of Hawaii, I traveled throughout the United States, including San Diego, Sequoia National Park, Washington DC, Yosemite National Park, and finally end here in Los Angeles in 1989. For the past 13 years, I have been an active volunteer in Los Angeles Asian Pacific American lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community. I was a co-founder in Gay Asian Pacific Support Network and also a founder of Barangay, the Filipino gay association of Los Angeles. My work life: I am a professional fundraiser. I am currently the Development Director at Search to Involve Filipino Americans.
Peter J Corpus: Harold actually asks me to start the panel by a little bit of introduction; try to give you an overview of gay and lesbian community. You know what is going on. And I want to actually cite 2000 US Census. Utilizing this. I don't know if you are aware of 2000 Census stating something historic. Now not only just 400,000 Japanese Americans (Inaudible. Videotape Interruption. Laugh.) I want to tell you is that if you take our side, number: percentage number of 10%; that is 10% of the population is gay lesbian bisexual transgender, you would come up with those numbers: you come up with 40, 000 gay and lesbian Japanese Americans in California, 14,000 in LA County, 5,000 in the City of Los Angeles. So potentially there is a very large community. It's among all of us. You know. And I think that to be aware of that to think there is a deeper diverse beyond race. And there is sexual orientation as a perspective on diversity. The community, our community, has been through much changes in recent years. As you can tell with the popularity of the sitcom like Will & Grace and all these other lesbian and gay characters on television. Something has happened. You know. There is more visibility. And I think personally, I can contribute this to the outcome of what we've gone through in recent years and mostly because of the outcries against the injustice and the movement resulted as the fight against the HIV and AIDS. This modern Holocaust I personally consider no less meant the very real sacrifice of thousand innocent men and women and children. I am sad to say many in our own family, friends, and acquaintances; and for me a time that I will never forget. I am still amazed at that I survived all. HIV and AIDS for all its costs and tolls upon us. They also brought more visibility, more attention, and more importantly to this stigma of being homosexual in this American society. I can only say that the more we talk about it, the more we learn, the better we become.
Peter J Corpus: So the recent developments in the gay and lesbian community. There is more than ever the in depth research not only the psychological development of homosexuality and its anthropological and sociological impact, but also on the biological and physiological sources of sexual orientation. In fact, Dr. Cheryl Weiss is soon to publish Nature's Choice, the Origin of Sexual Orientation which affirms the 1973 declassification by American Psychiatry Association of homosexuality as mental disorder You can also check out Human Right Champaign website and can download a file called "Finally Free" which documents many stories of those who've gone through ex-gay ministries like Exodus. On social front, Reverent Robert Weiter, Pastor of Shalom Community Christian Church in San Louis, Missouri reported San Louis Dispatch along with 125 newspapers in the nation are including same sex commitment announcements right along side marriage announcements. And of course, we all heard the Vermont sanction of same sex civil union. It's also good to know that 400 corporations in the United States now extend benefits to the domestic partners. So lots of different things, dynamics things are happening in the lesbian gay community.
Peter J Corpus: And that is why we assembled this very esteemed panel for you. And our first speaker is the Reverend Mark Briones. William! I am sorry. William! OK. William Briones! Reverent William Briones was born and raised in Mountain View, California and worked for 28 years as a research biologist in the Department of Physiology and Syntex Pharmaceuticals in Stanford. He took an early retirement to enroll at the Institute of Buddhist Studies, affiliated with Graduate Theology Union at Cal Berkeley. Upon completion he attended seminary in Kyoto, Japan for three years and received ordination being Tokudo and Kyoshi within the Buddhist School of Jodo Shinshu. He returned to the States last year in June and began orientation at Nishi Los Angeles Hongwaji Betsuin. In January this year joined ministerial staff as a full time Minister. Reverent Briones has two beautiful daughters still in Mountain View and a really neat 3 years old grandson. His fiancee is here tonight. She is also an ordained Jodo Shinshu Minister but from Higashi Hongwaji. So, Reverend Briones.
Reverend William Briones: (Inaudible. Laugh.)
Peter J Corpus: You can share.
Reverend William Briones: Oh, yeah, I can start?
Peter J Corpus: Yes, you can start.
Reverend William Briones: Well, when I was asked to do this, Harold called me up. And I think I have a problem with it, not as being homosexual issue, as being Japanese American. I am not Japanese American. I'm Filipino, Filipino-Mexican-American. I don't think I can contribute to this group as far as Japanese American. But seen this as Asian American, I guess I can contribute something to it. But as far as Buddhism goes, there is no issue. And so I feel like I am going to be useless here because there is actually no issue. If we go strictly to Buddhist teachings, and traditionally there are five precepts in Buddhism. One of the precepts is as far as abstained from sexual misconducts. (Inaudible.) Misconducts would be adultery, incest, rape and all the other sexual abuses. But besides that, within our tradition of Jodo Shinshu, we have what is called "Primal Vow". And within that vow it includes everyone. Everyone is safe regardless. And within this vow, that we place our trust within us. There is no discrimination whether young, old, gay or straight. It doesn't matter. All-inclusive. So it doesn't matter. But that is it. I can't say anything more. That, when they ask, my boss, he is a Betsuin, said, "Get to it." he said. "Don't get controversial. What can be so controversial about Buddhism and homosexuality? It's like everything else." He said. It is a non-issue. And I do believe homosexuals and Buddhism is an non-issue. That, our tradition is inclusive. If they weren't inclusive, and we start picking out those groups that don't count. Then the vow means nothing. That's the bottom line. It includes everyone. If it doesn't, then I waste my time as a minister. (Applause.)
• Further Discussion between Oscar H and Reverend William Briones
• Pure Land School Buddhism (Jodo)
Peter J Corpus: The next on our panel is Reverent Mark Nakagawa with Centenary Methodist Church.
Reverent Mark Nakagawa: Thanks. Peter has emailed me the other day. I just forgot about emailing him back my bio. Sorry about that. Just very quickly that I am a pastor in Centenary Methodist Church. Born and raised in Southern California over the Crenshaw Row. And actually my family grew up in Centenary Methodist. (Inaudible.) At the time, we were at Jefferson and Normandy. Now we are downtown in Little Tokyo. Incidentally, I did my seminary work at (Inaudible.) School of Religions which is now a part of Graduate Theology Union at Cal Berkeley where Reverent Briones also studied. And I actually took the first two courses at the Buddhist Institute at Cal Berkeley when they first opened to the public in 1984. We probably share a lot similarities up here. I also have to say here. You know. As I drive out this evening, as you all know, there is going to be a ballot. One of the issues on the ballot next month is whether or not you folks at San Fernando Valley want to cede from the folks in LA. But I found it very paradoxical that you got three persons from downtown LA here on this panel. (Inaudible.) That tells me that you still need Los Angeles. (Laugh.) No matter how you vote. Actually I am hoping that the ballot won't succeed so that the City of Los Angeles establishes that San Diego Freeway and Ventura Freeway is a toll road.
Reverent Mark Nakagawa: I am speaking tonight as a United Methodist and as a Christian Methodist pastor. But I think as any endeavor, when a person speaks; they are not necessary representing the entire viewpoint of the organization or United Methodist. I think that it is going to be very true in my case. I don't see how anybody as a United Methodist can speak definitively on the issue of homosexuality in our denomination. (Inaudible) Split on this issue. So I am going to just briefly state on this general background... Christian, a Christian point of view on issue of homosexuality... issue of sexuality. I really have problem just talking about homosexuality. The discussion needs to be all sexuality and not just as one. You know as I look at it really homosexuality, sexuality in general is a theological issue as opposed to a biblical issue. What do I mean by that? The Bible like almost any other sacred texts has passages that speak to many different issues of lives. We've seen people have taken, for example, certain passages or scriptures and try to literally apply those passages to lives here in the third millennium. I don't think that's credible. You can't take a passage that is written 2000 years ago and automatically drop it down into lives here in this millennium and automatically have parallel application. There need to be explanations, some contemporary works. Unfortunately I think my friend is right in that it's what they do and said. They cite certain passages and say that, "It is what we said 2000 years ago, so we apply it here."
Reverent Mark Nakagawa: Surely there are text and passages in Bible taken at face values were seen to be speaking against homosexuality or other sexualities as well. What is needed is to take text and to apply them in a proper context rather than, apply them literally. I've always said, you know, you need to read the Bible seriously and not literally. Seriously reading the Bible demands some type of background studies. I am not saying that you need to be a scholar to understand what the Bible says. But I do believe in this. That is my opinion. The Bible does take the issue of sexualities seriously. Why? Because way back into the Book of Genesis it's written that God creates humans as sexual beings, as male and female. After that, though, there are certain passages in Hebrew scriptures that traditionally have been called the Old Testament, again if you read it at face value seems to indicate that homosexuality is forbidden in the Bible. However, there are other passages in both Old and New Testament that seem gay (Inaudible.).
Reverent Mark Nakagawa: But more importantly I think you need to think about what the Bible doesn't say about sexuality. Jesus never talks about homosexuality, positive or negative. We talk about homosexuality. In fact, there are some biblical scholars who cite Apostle Paul as possibly having a personal struggle with the issue of homosexuality because there are passages in the letters of Paul in the New Testament to talk about certain personal struggles that he has. They never mention what they are. But there are some scholars who believe that homosexuality; personal homosexuality might have been one of them. So in terms of biblical understanding of homosexuality you are not going to find any two people who are going to agree. Therefore, what is needed is more theological one. And that is taken the scared text and freshen it up a little bit more just beyond (Inaudible.) A lot of work has only been done in the last 20-30 years. And as you can imagine, the jury is still out in regards to what Christians were told to say about homosexuality. Again from a Christian perspective, my position is to model it as Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ has not said anything about homosexuality, sexuality. But Jesus did teach how to treat other human beings, that is compassion, have a sense of mercy, have a sense of justice and I, as a Christian, in terms of my understanding of sexuality and how human beings should be treated.
Reverent Mark Nakagawa: Just to show a very personal experience during my seminary days. One semester I was in a class one day. It was actually a class of Personal Religion and Science. One day the Pres said, "The next time we meet which is actually in two days. We are going to have a guest speaker coming and share what is like to be a homosexual." Three days passed, we showed up for class. And the guest speaker happened to be a student of the class. And we were about at the midpoint of the semester when this happened. The guest speaker happens to be a student in the class (Inaudible.) and whom I have gotten to know very well. Again it shows sexuality of his or mine, never came up, never important. And when I sat there and listened to his story, as one of his eyes is a black eye because he has been jumped one night by a group of anti-gays and beat him up and a friend of his. And in a course of listening to that story, and I really hadn't have any strong feeling one or another about homosexuality. But on a purely human level just hearing this story and hearing of what he had to go through not just in that one event but also his personal life. Simply because his sexual feelings are different from what we call mainstream feelings or your feeling and my feeling just didn't make sense. And from that point onward, and again I have to say, I became more sensitized, not so much to the issue of sexuality but issues of experiences that people have to endure and go through because of their claims on sexuality. And again as a Christian, it goes back to God, who God is, and God is a sexual being and we are all created by God. This is the struggle or the debate that's unfolding in the Christian community. I guess that that's the bad news. The good news is that the jury is still out and that there is God for more broader and fuller understanding of human sexuality and the depth to which we as sexual beings are created by God. (Applause.)
Peter J Corpus: Thanks. Our next panel is Betty Kobata who is a member of West Valley United Methodist Church. Betty is a retired LAUSD teacher and her other work experience as a case worker for Los Angeles Department of Social Services as a Family Services and Child Welfare Case Worker. Betty has been married for 35 years with her husband, Bob, and has two adult sons. Betty is an active member of West Valley United Methodist Church, and is also a supporting member of the Methodist Federation for Social Action. She is also involved in the Asian Pacific Islander PFLAG Group and is a volunteer in the Grandparents for Books program in Pacoima Library. She is enjoying her leisure traveling with her husband, taking classes, visiting family and friends, reading and trying to stay physically fit.
Betty Kotaba: Good evening. I am here and I'm what you might call a straight ally, meaning that I am not gay nor do I have gay children. And you may be wondering why am I involved in this issue? There're two reasons. First, it's as civil rights issue. And second, as a personal journey. As civil rights issue, I think to myself here we are in the 21st century and we still have a segment of our society that is still marginalized, discriminated and abused and in many cases is alienated from their own families. I think that, you know, it is just not acceptable where our young Asian Americans, Japanese Americans... They are truly a minority within a minority. There's much publicized case of Matthew Shephard, a young college student in Wyoming, that was tragically brutalized and killed just because he is gay. And to me it is just unacceptable. As a matter of fact in today's paper, LA Times, there is another case in Northern California where a young man was beaten to death. She's a transgender. I am tired to read days and nights about these instances where you have gays that are the victims of hate crime or violence. And to me, it's just unacceptable. You know, just as in the 60s, we had the Civil Rights Movements that work for equality and civil rights. There were full efforts there. And I think now we need to focus on those Civil Rights for our gay population, our bisexual, transgender population as well. I think when we have people marginalized by society for whatever reasons. I think it really diminishes the humanity among each of us. You know it's not just a gay issue. I think heterosexuals need to come out of the closet, so to speak, to make a stand and to be a voice and to bring about a change and understanding. There has been some progress due to the efforts by Harold and Ellen and (Inaudible.). Much has been made. But there are still much to be done.
Betty Kotaba: The second reason that I have become involved is my faith. As a member of the faith community, I always believe that God's love is inclusive and embraces everyone regardless of our differences. God's love is unconditional. We are, after all, the creatures of his creation. We need to recognize and appreciate the diversity of his creation. For me, personally, it is my Christian witness. It is important to promote and demonstrate the concepts of God's love and acceptance. We need to educate ourselves and to be better understand what is meant to be gay in this society, to be different from the mainstream. I think it is incumbent to all religious institution and the concepts as well. And for me, personally, it is very encouraging to see all representing different segment of society, especially the clergy, Reverent Briones and Reverent Nakagawa. And I think that they should be done a lot more in our community. As a closing thought, I would present this as a challenge and as an opportunity to JACL, which is a long-standing and well established civil rights organization to get involve in this issue. To make a public stand. For three years, I've participated in the Gay Pride Parade. And each time, I found it to be a very awarding and enriching experience. And I think it will be for all of you as well. So as a closing thought, I would ask that... I invite each of you to join with us next year in the Asian Pacific PFLAG to march with us next year. I think it will be a very awesome on this issue. (Applause.)
Peter J Corpus: Thank you, B T. Our next two panelists are a mother and a son. The mother is B T in Senshin Buddhist Temple. B T has been married for 29 years. And she and her husband, John, have two adult sons. She grew up in Seattle, Washington and moved to California in 1967, graduating from USC in 1970. She works at LA County/USC Medical Center--it is her 32nd year--where she is the physical therapy education coordinator. B T is the current President of Senshin Buddhist Temple located in Los Angeles and near USC campus. Besides her involvement of the Temple, B T manages to find time running and bicycling. B T's son, T T, sits next to her on her left. T T is currently teaching 7th grade science at W Middle School. It is his second year of teaching as a part of Teach for America. He is still contemplating a career in medicine. Tory is a product of LAUSD and graduated USC in 2001 with two bachelors in Political Science and Biology. He currently lives in West LA, sometimes, active member of Senshin Buddhist Temple.
B T: Thank you for having me on the panel. I guess I will start on what brought me here. I guess it is a little bit about a year ago that T T came out to the family. And I had some suspicions. But I was still crying. But interesting, he is getting ready to go out of state. And T T, he probably will tell you that he told each of us. Not necessary by design, he told his brother, first. And he told my husband, his father. And I think we all react very positively. Just as a sign that we are a very open and caring family. And I guess I was first kind of hurt because I would like to think that parents are kid's best friends. Then I was sad because he was carrying this burden for so many years. So like anything else that I don't know a lot about it. I read. I need to get information. So I immediately thought about my transgender friend, Mitchell. And she steers me to PFLAG and also the computers so I found out more information about it. So I went. And luckily at that evening, Harold and Ellen Kameya were present. So, of course, we locked our eyes. Because, you know, they are my salvation. Because most of the room are full of Caucasians. So I started up a conversation and I picked up literature. They were very warm and told me about their group. Shortly after, I began to attend their monthly support meetings at the Village. (Inaudible.) I learned a lot. Like heterosexual community, there is broad spectrum. And I think those are ignorant of LGBT community, kind of have a stereotype (Inaudible.) of being feminine male or someone in drag. I don't think T T would come. But he is here. And I am very glad to be here. And I really appreciate that Harold and Ellen. You have been great supports. (Applause.)
Audiences: (Inaudible. Laugh.)
Peter J Corpus: Well, you know, you know, actually the community is very diverse. You know gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgender. The issues are diverse. They really come back down to sexual orientations and gender identity. Transgender generally means a person who was born as a woman but really identifies more with a man, likewise, vice versa; a person who was born as a man but feels like his orientation as a female. (Laugh. Inaudible.) Anyway, so Tory.
T T: Just to give credits to my mom. (Inaudible.) as a part of Teach for America, a month and a half for training to be a teacher. I used this opportunity to (Inaudible.) I came out to them about a week or two before I left. "I'm gay," I said. (Inaudible.) I said, you know, I just want to tell them. Anyone who has to deal with this issue has to learn about it. But a lot of time, they ignore their friends and families whom they just want to tell them and have them OK with it. But friends and families need to go through their own coming out process of learning how to deal with having someone who is different than they would normally thought. I just I told my family, I thought this you know; (Inaudible.) it is interesting that I was reading a book that around the time that most children, teenagers, pre-teens, are learning about opposite sex. For LGBT, lesbian, gay, bisexuals, and transgender teenagers, they are learning how to hide and how to conform to the norms of the society and how to seem normal. So what Reverent Nakagawa said earlier reminds me of it.
T T: In one study I read that LGBT youths can actually be thought of it as gifted youth because if they do succeed in school they are not only to succeed academically but also to withstand the strong societal pressure against something they come to self-identify themselves... So they are special types of persons, that in a way. Growing up as minority within a minority is always difficult. You never know because you will have even less to fall back on. As a minority (Inaudible.) an amazing society. You have your church, your family, Japanese school, whatever to identify with to get a strong sense of community and a strong sense of backing. For LGBT youth, it's a lot harder to find that community, to find the fellow minority within a minority. I never knew there are any other LGBT youth growing up. So, that may be the one of the main reasons why I decided to wait so long to tell until I graduated from college, basically, before coming out to my parents. So, it is a very difficult issue I believe, not only in JA community, but in any minority within a minority, Black, or Latino, breaking down whatever you want to. It's tough. And I think as a minority within great American culture we need to confront. Thank you for having me on this panel. And I hope I did contribute something (Applause.)
(The next panelist, LG, does not want her words to be transcribed into text in the public.)
Peter J Corpus: Thank you, LG. And our finalist, final panelist is Brian Nagami. (Laugh.) Quiz show! Brian Nagami is with Asian Pacific AIDS Intervention Team. Brain Nagami recently graduated from UCLA with a degree in psychology. As a student he was active in UCLA's Asian Pacific Coalition, the Intercollegiate Nikkei Council and UCLA's Nikkei Student Union serving as their first openly gay president. He has just recently started working for the Asian Pacific AIDS Intervention Team. And so welcome, Brian Nagami. (Applause.)
Brain Nagami: I didn't know I needed to come here until early this week. I got an email forwarded to me actually from Harold. And I reply, "Oh, yeah, if you need someone, I am glad to come by". So I really have nothing prepared to say. (Laugh. Inaudible.) I can talk really fast. So just slow me down. I guess I can start by telling my coming out story. I kind of knew that I was gay. There is something different about me in sexual (Inaudible.) back when I was probably around 11 or 12. I remember that there is one (Inaudible. Laugh.) Anyway, when I first started thinking about that, I told myself, you know, it is a phase. It is something that everyone would go through it. It is something that eventually will go away. And I told myself (Inaudible.) many years. But eventually I kind of realize that I'm gay. I am different. And people just have to accept that. I am from Orange County by the way. I am your typical Japanese American. I play basketball a lot at High School. (Inaudible.) I got my eagle scout. I had my job and great friends at school. (Inaudible. Laugh.) I didn't really tell, back in high school. I didn't know anyone who is gay or rather no one has told me because I actually have friend who was gay. But we didn't realize that until out of high school.
Brain Nagami: I came out when I was second year in college. I was really involved in the UCLA Japanese American group, and this called Nikkei Union. And I thought as long as I was running for President and no one is running against me, so I thought, you know, it is something that means a lot to me. So I am going to mention it. So while I was running for the President, I mentioned it in a speech. But if you guys are very familiar with Japanese American community: gossips. So I thought before I do that, I need to tell my close friends. I need to tell my parents. So, my mom, she had gay co-workers. So I am pretty sure that she is positive. My dad, I wasn't really sure. Surprisingly when I told them, (Inaudible.) and my dad asked me if I ever had a girl friend. He wants me to try the other side. My mom kind of scolded me. That is how it works. And the next day, my dad drove me to school back to UCLA. And he told me that he is glad that I told them. That no matter what, I am still their son, their child and that he loves me. I had a few friends who told their parents so they got kicked out of the house. (Inaudible.) They just jumped from house to house among friends until they worked out with their parents or (Inaudible.) After I came out to all my friends at school, most of them are pretty accepting. I think a lot of time people just need to know some one who is close enough in order to realize that being gay isn't something that is wrong. They are just people, like everyone else. I had a few friends that were not accepting or it took them a little while longer, like some of my friends from Boys Scout. There are a few that I didn't talk to for a while, like we just stopped talking. But after a while after talking to some other friends, they kind of came out to me and told me like "Oh, I'm really sorry about it". We talked. And eventually, most of the people I know, they are pretty accepting. That's all I have to share. (Applause.)
Peter J Corpus: Before we go on to the comments, questions from the audience. I want to ask the panelists if you have any other comments after having everyone else who has something to share. Especially Reverent Briones and Reverent Nakagawa, you want to address how some of your thoughts and feelings you shared earlier, how you reflect that in the leadership of your congregations. How is that reacted to? How is that thinking?
Reverend Briones: Well, being the minister at an all exclusive club, all Japanese American, I think as a minister here almost as the last line of (Inaudible.). By the time it came to the minister, it's beyond our controls. It's beyond what we can do. There is nothing that we can do. I have never had any situation to speak about homosexuality or any issue. Most of my experience that comes from research environment and it's very international, multi-culture. There are a lot of... There are many gays that I worked with. Never give a second thought. I just thought that it's part of our scientific community. People came out and we have discussions. And I was part of the coming out process. But I never really had any experiences, so I can't really say.
Reverend Nakagawa: I thank all the panelists up here, but particularly for LG, Tory and Brian for sharing your stories. I think it's the most powerful thing, not so much that what you can do. But I think the most powerful thing (Inaudible.) in terms of trying to learn about sexuality. I hate to use the word "understand" because I don't really think homosexuality is something that is understood or not understood, just the same way that heterosexuality is something that is understood or not understood. I have always said that I've problem understanding heterosexual. To my knowledge, no homosexual has ever assassinated a President of the United States, you know, or Civil Rights leader. Those are all heterosexuals. So I have no problem understanding heterosexuals or homosexuals. Get back to my points, that is, to share the story is the most important and even as a lay theologian, I mean, I am a pastor, someone who is supposedly--does theology. You know. You could study the sacred text and you can read about the literature or doctrine of the church. But, it's really when I hear stories from people about real life experiences, my theological and religious understanding are... (Inaudible.) I just want to appreciate the younger people. (Inaudible.)
Peter J Corpus: All right, we will entertain questions, Paul.
Audience: For someone who has been involved in the Civil Rights issue for a long time, I really would like to ask questions for B T and Reverent Briones. For chair or trustee of Senshin Buddhist Temple (Inaudible) Little Tokyo Buddhist Temple, I think it struck me that it's very difficult to find and to be able to get Buddhists as a group to take a policy position. I remember several years back when (Inaudible.)... It is not normal for Buddhist Temple as a group to take a position on public issue. I don't quite understand why that is. I was wondering how does that impact on this particular issue?
B T: I will. Of course, I think it is the question best answered by Sensei Briones. As I mentioned in PFLAG meeting, in Buddhism, you know, also as a part of JA culture, I feel uncomfortable drawing attentions to myself. And yet we do. We love. We praise. But it is ego that gets on our way. It's ego that really causes a lot of suffering. So, I know what you are coming from, Paul. But I can remember when I joined Senshin, the American flags are long gone. Again the separation of church and state. (Inaudible.) I think just the feeling of Buddhism not drawing attention, and yes I have been active in Civil Rights... As a Buddhist, are you going to take a stand on abortion? Are you going to take a stand on this, on terrorism, or on something? You know. We are very low key. A lot of times, JA, anyway, are low key. But you get Buddhists, Jodo Shinshu, you know. We don't want to draw attention to ourselves. And yet I am a third generation. I am a sansei. I'm right out there: "Justice. Justice". So I have very different feelings. I don't want to hang you guys up because I feel like Reverent Briones can do a much better job. But that is just, I guess, my personal perspective.
Reverend Briones: To be a Jodo Shinshu Buddhist, our main concern is personal awakening. Jodo Shinshu is a very personal religion. We cannot, and it is true, that those churches in American will not take a stand on civil rights, human rights, abortion, school prayer. They will come up with pamphlets saying that apparently it is our position. For example, the 911, they didn't come out. Civil Rights didn't come out, neither. They will not come out with homosexuality. Because the feeling is that no one can speak for the organization. Everyone is as own karmic causing conditions (?) (Inaudible.). One individual or a group of individuals cannot speak for the entire Buddhist Church. That's our stand. They just won't do it. As individuals, we can do it. I'm here as an individual, representing my feelings on Jodo Shinshu. If the bishops were here, I think I will get scolded. I always get scolded, anyway. (Laugh.) said, "Don't be a radical." He did not like me to come here. But it is my time. And it is how I feel. I will do what I need to do to make a statement...
